GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Tim Minear reveals another unfilmed FF episode

POSTED BY: BLINKER
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 10, 2006 21:31
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 21620
PAGE 1 of 3

Friday, November 18, 2005 2:47 PM

BLINKER


From accounts of a writing seminar he taught last week:

=====

http://www.livejournal.com/users/_eb/83667.html#cutid1

What were some of the Firefly stories you never got to tell?

He hemmed and hawed, “Should I tell you this?… Oh well, what’s he going to do, fire me?” The original show was darker and this story was more in keeping with that tone.

It opens with Mal and Inara fighting (as they do). Mal tells her she pretends to be a lady and wants everyone to bow before her and kiss her hand but she’s just a whore. Then the Reavers attack and take Inara. While trying to get her back they learn that she had something that would make anyone who had sex with her die. When they finally track down and board the ship they find all of the Reavers dead and Inara shaking and traumatized. They take her back to the ship and Zoe guards her room. Mal tries to get in to see her and Zoe tells him he’s the last person Inara needs to see. He pushes past her, kneels before Inara and kisses her hand.

Of course someone asked, “Is that what the syringe [that Inara gets out when the Reavers approach in the pilot episode] was for?” To which he replied, “I don’t know. Next question.”

=====

http://www.buffistas.org/showthread.php?thread_id=143&post_id=6060

Inara has yet another fight with Mal, in which he says something especially cruel like "I'm not going to get on my knees and kiss your hand like your a lady. You're a whore."

Inara has a sort of chemical weapon in case of rape, so whomever attacks will die immediately after raping her. (I'm not saying this all as eloquently, I'm pre-coffee).

She's kidnapped by reavers in an attack. Mal and crew go in to the reaver ship to save her.

What they find is the entire crew of reavers, all dead, and Inara huddled on the floor, beaten half to death.

Later, in Inara's shuttle, it's only Zoe there, guarding her silently. Mal tried to come in, and Zoe opens a can of whup ass and tells Mal no fucking way is anyone coming in.

Mal gets past Zoe (yeah, right) and walks over to Inara's bed where she's curled up and post-traumatic. Gets on his knees, and kisses her hand.

=====

http://browncoats.serenitymovie.com/serenity/index.html?fuseaction=for
um.viewtopic&t=25271&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=15


He described it as a weapon, not a disease that she carried. He later said in another forum that it had nothing to do with the syringe.

=====

Given the context, I don't see how it could be anything but the same syringe, but there you have it.

_________
Sliders: Gate Haven - http://slidersweb.net/blinker

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 6:20 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


It would be a great opportunity to maim Inara. Her profession depends a lot on her appearance, I wonder if she could still be a Companion if she gets "uglied up."

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 6:32 PM

JADEHAND


That's an interesting idea for what the syringe might have been. It also could be Tim just messing with people. Who knows. I know Joss and Tim don't mind doing horrible things to characters, but Inara getting reavered? I'm not sure either would do that. But, they've surprised me before.

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live
"Dreaming the dream that only the sleepless know."
"Say you understand me, And I will leave myself completely.
Forgive me if I stare, But I can see the island behind your tired, troubled eyes." -Fantastic Place (Marbles) -Marillion



NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 6:49 PM

ELGGIN


I love the Mal/Inara relationship

It would have been very interesting to see how this would have effected that relationship

Perhaps an fic exploring this...

Is that wrong?

I can't write anyway


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 7:11 PM

KHYRON



Interesting. But there's something very dodgy about the storyline. If the reavers board the ship, how would everybody else survive, and why would the reavers only take Inara? I guess it's always possible that they kidnap Inara while she's flying to a client in her shuttle.

But even then, why does the crew go to rescue her? For all they know Inara is dead, and trying to board a reaver ship trying to save somebody that should be dead sounds like suicide.

Then there's the problem I have with Zoe "guarding" Inara afterwards. Why does she do that? To protect Inara from the rest of the crew? Since when do Inara and Zoe have such a tight bond? Off-hand I can remember only one conversation between the two in the series, and even then it was merely part of a plan to fool JoSaffBridge. And if Inara wants her privacy, why doesn't she just lock her door? Zoe guarding Inara sounds very melodramatic and corny.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 7:24 PM

KAYLEEFRYE


How can that happen? If she killed a whole ship full of reavers by poisoning them as they raped her, wouldn't she herself be pretty far gone by the time all that was done? I mean, remember Serenity? It looks like there's a lot of reavers on those ships.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 7:53 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Well it would depend on the size of the Reaver ship, it could have been a small pursuit craft not much bigger than Serenity's shuttles.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 8:22 PM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND


You guys (and gals) are great, but I swear you think too much sometimes. If that's a story they had in the offing, then there you go. At this point I don't think Tim's gonna go through all the energy to just make something that complex up. It wouldn't be too difficult to set up situations where these things could happen.

Maybe a small Reaver ship got to Inara in her shuttle on the way back to Serenity, and knowing that it's a small ship (a crew of maybe 6 to 8) and that they've only had her for a couple of hours, they decide to go and get her. There, that was easy.

And I totally think they would be willing to mess with a character in such a major way. That's what allows the story to progress. And change is, as the saying goes, inevitable.

OH, and I wouldn't compare it to Serenity (the movie) either, because these stories were in the works long before anyone thought about making a movie. Joss has said quite plainly that a lot of things had to change once we moved from TV to the silver screen.

Anyway, they would have made it work, and it would have been great, just like every one of the few episodes that we actually got.

Thanks for posting all of this by the way; I love hearing new tidbits and pieces.

I hope Tim didn't just totally spoil whatever Joss had in mind for a sequel to Serenity. Then I actually WOULD be pissed.

"I don't wanna explode."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 8:52 PM

TIGER


Oh my GAWWWD. :-( I'm almost glad we never saw that episode; I don't know if I could stand seeing Inara broken that way.

She's my favorite character, and imagining this episode makes me understand better the people who abandoned Whedon altogether after he killed Wash.

I'd never take it that far, but I uderstand the impulse.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Friday, November 18, 2005 10:05 PM

XEROGRAVITY


Wow. That would have been powerful storytelling.

I wish Minnear would bring back Firefly. Whedon is off doing other things and Minnear is the only realistic chance we have IMO.

No wonder the studios killed the show. We need wholesame feelgood tear-jerker TV starring cops, lawyers, activists, and cartoon characters.

XG


Save us Obi-Tim-Knobi. You're our only hope.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 3:26 AM

GROUNDED


You'd think after the third or fourth Reaver died of rape-itis they'd have tossed her out an airlock?... ;)

Can't imagine an episode like that would have ever made it on air anyway.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 3:37 AM

ANASAZI


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
It would be a great opportunity to maim Inara. Her profession depends a lot on her appearance, I wonder if she could still be a Companion if she gets "uglied up."




Dude, that's just wrong on so many levels, I'm not even going to get into it....

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 4:40 AM

CAPTAINSHINY


uh... wasn't the syringe just for suicide in case of reaver attack?

"That's why I never kiss 'em on the mouth."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 5:23 AM

GEEKMAFIA


No Joss says on the dvd audio commentanry that that isn't what it is, most people didn't think about it til then but it started alot of speculation over what it was.



011101000110100001100101001000000111001101101001
011001110110111001100001011011000000110100001010

Liu koushui de biaozi he houzi de ben erzi.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:04 AM

SADLITTLEKING


Quote:

Originally posted by Tiger:
Oh my GAWWWD. :-( I'm almost glad we never saw that episode; I don't know if I could stand seeing Inara broken that way.

She's my favorite character, and imagining this episode makes me understand better the people who abandoned Whedon altogether after he killed Wash.

I'd never take it that far, but I uderstand the impulse.



The most powerful storytelling will move you in such a way that you never thought possible. It makes you face everyday fears that you hope you'll never have to face. I understand why people like "safe" entertainment in which no one is seriously hurt, the good guy wins in the end without corrupting his moral values, and everybody's happy and rides off into the sunset. I understand why people like that. It makes them feel good. But then there's the type of entertainment that makes you feel things you hope you don't have to feel. It makes you take a hard look at life and the world we live in. It makes you think. And it may even inspire you to do something to change the real world for the better.

Honestly, if this episode ever got made and aired, I would've been devastated by it. It would've taken me completely by surprise. I would've been shocked for days, maybe even weeks. But that's how much I'm drawn into Firefly/Serenity and the characters in it. I feel for them. And as the next episodes dealt with the situation and the characters came to grips with what had occured and faced it down, I would've been right there with them. Because I'm sure with an event that tragic, the episodes to follow would've continued to tell powerful stories. And it'd be interesting to see where things would go from there.

That's why I watch and love Battlestar Galactica. It has that same type of storytelling. In fact, in the last couple of episodes, we found another Battlestar which had taken one of Six's clones prisoner. We found out that'd she'd been severely beaten and repeatedly raped. And you know what, it pissed me off. It made me hate the people who did that to her. It made me feel for Six as she looked upon her clone with tears in her eyes. It also made me wonder who really was worse -- Humans or Cylons? Are the Cylons justified in exterminating a people capable of such atrocities? Guess what, that's still a question I haven't answered yet. I'm still thinking about it. That's why I love this type of entertainment. It makes a real impact on me.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:13 AM

TIGER


Quote:

Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
The most powerful storytelling will move you in such a way that you never thought possible... That's why I watch and love Battlestar Galactica. It has that same type of storytelling... It makes a real impact on me.

You're preaching to the choir here - I love BSG too and for the same reasons.

There's no doubt the Inara/Reaver storyline would've been powerful, but it sure would have hurt to watch. I just like Inara too much for me not to be a little frightened by the thought of it.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:27 AM

SADLITTLEKING


Quote:

Originally posted by Tiger:
You're preaching to the choir here - I love BSG too and for the same reasons.

There's no doubt the Inara/Reaver storyline would've been powerful, but it sure would have hurt to watch. I just like Inara too much for me not to be a little frightened by it.



It definately would've frightened me. I was frightened watching Kaylee's reaction to Early's question, "You ever been raped, Kaylee?" That was tough to watch. I understand why, in the DVD commentary, it was revealed that Joss was a hated man the day that was filmed. But it was a powerful moment. It really shook me. And it stuck with me. And it's still not easy to watch. But that's storytelling in its highest form. Art imitates life, as they say. Anything could happen at anytime, whether triumphunt or tragic.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:03 AM

FIGHTTHEFUTURE


This could have been such a tremendous episode. I can see it in three acts:

I) Mel/Inara tension setup; the attack of the Reavers and the talking of Inara.
II) The decision to try to save her, or her remains as Jayne would state she is gone and the ensuing mayhem to do so.
III) Her return to Serenity, broken in body, mind and spirit. This act would dwell on what she meant to others, especially Mel and his regrets; his kissing her hand, his loss of her.

In the meantime, Simon would be able to heal her body, but who could heal her mind, her spirit? I would see River being capable, broken herself, but broken with the gift of preternatural perception and a hyper-genius intellect. She can pull out the broken fragments of Inara's mind via talk-therapy (of a sort) to help her pull it back together, with some help from Simon using 25th century psychotropic drugs, and perhaps a word of wisdom or two from Reverend Brooks and everyone else.

This episode would further the value of River and Simon to the crew; the mystery/capabilities of River to do good, to heal; the heroism of the crew; the value of Inara to all, especially Mel. It would also showcase the ultimate strength of Inara, for to even survive what happened, the gang rape by a bunch of sociopathic Reavers, you have to be supremely strong and capable in the first place

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:29 AM

LIMINALOSITY


Quote:

Originally posted by SadLittleKing:
another Battlestar which had taken one of Six's clones prisoner.



Till I read this, I was thinking this whole story was filled with the moans of the couch.

Yup, could be, and Joss would have done it even better, as always. I don't much like the idea of this horrid plot device. It gets really tiresome that in any story it's liable to be an undercurrent of danger and violence only for female characters, and when it does happen to a male character (Bushwacked) it isn't mentioned or alluded to at all in the script.

If it's true, Tim should get so spanked for giving it away, extra lashes because he said 'what's he gonna do, fire me'.

Thanks to viral marketing...SERENITY: reopening soon in a theater near you.
Shiny Trees! Yavanna made Shiny Trees!

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:35 AM

ZOOT


Quote:

Originally posted by Grounded:
You'd think after the third or fourth Reaver died of rape-itis they'd have tossed her out an airlock?... ;)

Can't imagine an episode like that would have ever made it on air anyway.



He hehehehehheeeee!!

Grounded proves that he/she deserves the name!!!!

Superb!!!

***************************************

Okay, I'm lost, I'm angry, and I'm
armed.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:38 AM

FLYINGTAMS


So Inara raped by 50 reavers. Wow, a sick story - good thing they never filmed that.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:38 AM

CHINDI


Wow Fightthefuture.. I can see it.. I can feel it and it is uncomfortable and agonizing and ultimately full of redemption..

oh the places Joss and Tim might have taken us.. we will never really know.. but yes- it would have been profound and special and we would have gone along... on every journey.

Chindi (impressed by the level of writing and thought in this fansite.)

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:40 AM

BELACGOD


What with the level of escalation required of tv shows, I can't imagine this happening anytime soon. It's so extreme, if they did this during season 1 they could never shock us again for 6 more seasons, espcially since our existing benchmark for torture is what the Academy did to River.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 9:50 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


The Academy's torture of River wasn't really that bad. It was really high tech, brain surgery and downloading stuff directly into the brain. The Academy River attended probably looks like a five star hotel compared to what it was like when it was first built.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 9:51 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Anasazi:
Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
It would be a great opportunity to maim Inara. Her profession depends a lot on her appearance, I wonder if she could still be a Companion if she gets "uglied up."




Dude, that's just wrong on so many levels, I'm not even going to get into it....


Of course it's wrong, which is why it would make a great story.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:06 AM

LAX01


Quote:

Originally posted by Blinker:
From accounts of a writing seminar he taught last week:

=====

http://www.livejournal.com/users/_eb/83667.html#cutid1




Did anyone happen to get videos of either the class or the interview? Both sound pretty interesting to watch...I guess I need to move to LA

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:42 AM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
The Academy's torture of River wasn't really that bad. It was really high tech, brain surgery and downloading stuff directly into the brain. The Academy River attended probably looks like a five star hotel compared to what it was like when it was first built.



You can't be serious. I wrote a long reply full of reasoning and comparisons of Academy and Reaver methods, but my mind still boggles, so I deleted it.

They physically took out part of her brain so she'll never again be able to repress emotion, and gave her horribly traumatic memories that she won't ever be able to stop herself from reliving. That's "not really that bad"? What do you think is "that bad"?

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 11:39 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Quote:

Originally posted by Belacgod:
Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:
The Academy's torture of River wasn't really that bad. It was really high tech, brain surgery and downloading stuff directly into the brain. The Academy River attended probably looks like a five star hotel compared to what it was like when it was first built.



You can't be serious. I wrote a long reply full of reasoning and comparisons of Academy and Reaver methods, but my mind still boggles, so I deleted it.

They physically took out part of her brain so she'll never again be able to repress emotion, and gave her horribly traumatic memories that she won't ever be able to stop herself from reliving. That's "not really that bad"? What do you think is "that bad"?


They implanted conditioning into her mind. How do you think they would condition her if they didn't have that technology? They would actually force her to do all that stuff, they probably would have forced her to actually kill people.

Removing a part of her brain to enhance her psychic abilities is a quick fix. If they didn't lobotomize her they would have to train her to use her psychic abilities and knowing the Alliance, the training would probably be far more painful and traumatic than having a piece of her brain removed.

My guess is that students trained at the Academy in its early days are far more messed up than River.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 11:52 AM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by Giantevilhead:



My guess is that students trained at the Academy in its early days are far more messed up than River.




Great. We haven't seen them. What we have seen is River being tortured horribly, and I'm arguing that seeing Inara having been gang-raped by Reavers would be more shocking, to the point where they wouldn't put both of those in season 1, for fear of not being able to shock us later.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:04 PM

JACQUI


I have a hard time picturing Joss taking the "sex = death" metaphor to such a cheesy level.

Or using the "female sexuality and empowerment = death" cliche *at all*. Vagina dentata indeed.

Seriously, Joss has stressed in Inara that sensuality and sexuality is not a bad thing, I honestly can't see him abusing her to such an extent.

Joss, for all his faults, is more subtle than that. Early's threat to Kaylee is so powerful, because it isn't overdone, he's not twirling a big black moustache and sneering and posturing. It's a scary fuckin' scene for us and for Kaylee, because it's so subtle.

A bunch of reavers gang raping Inara sounds like a really bad fanfic, much in the vein of a bunch of reavers gang raping Jayne. It's a cheap plot device to break a character so that they can rebuild them in the way they want.

*~*~*
"He's hurting a woman, he really *is* a bad guy... and I wouldn't call him a gentleman."
- Kyle, 9, watching 'Serenity'.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:07 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Obviously they can put that episode in the first season, it probably won't really fit within the first few seasons. Although the legacy of the Academy would probably be far more shocking and twisted than Inara getting captured by Reavers.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:15 PM

CAPTAIN


I agree with the sentiment that if this event were to occur, it wouldn't be so soon, as in in the first or second season because as others have said, it ups the ante to such a high level that it might become impossible to top or to get over for some time. I'd imagine, all things being equal, the first two or maybe even three seasons would revolve around River, and the Academy, culminating in the events that more or less take place in the BDM. Should there be more story to tell after that, which I hope there would be, the plot could then continue to build and build toward some sort of giant, epic, or not, confrontation between Mal, the crew, and all those who would stand against the Alliance again against those who want to remain in control.

Granted, I'm not really sure if this is completely correct because Joss was always so passionate about NOT having Mal and the crew become epic heroes, at least not right away, but rather be the people who exist on the fringes of epic adventures. Still, with everything that went down in the film, I think there is no turning back for our Captain, that he now has once again jumped into the forefront of a war.

This particular idea that Tim has shown us would certainly be shocking and very disturbing to say the least. I couldn't imagine how exactly Inara would be able to cope with this, and very much like the idea of River perhaps being her lifeline since she too was broken and violated, though in a different way.

Joss greatly enjoys raising the stakes, so I don't see this as being an impossible turn of events, but I think it would happen later in the series as opposed to earlier, because if it happened earlier, that would mean there would be even more drastic plot twists to come that would have to shock us even more, and I'm not sure what could possibly be conjured up to continually shock us to a higher level than someone being taken and abused by Reavers.

Hopefully, we'll one day be able to find out exactly what was planned out, or maybe even see it unfold for ourselves.

Take care all.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:42 PM

LIGHTMEDARK


I think one has to keep in mind that this was in keeping with the original plan of a very dark show. What eventually aired was ligher in tone than what was planned. For all we know, in the original crafting of the story this was a part earlier in the plot and not as completely shocking as it seems it would be given the way the series did turn out (not that it wouldn't still be shocking, of course).

---
inch towards daylight

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:44 PM

CAPTAIN


That's a very interesting point.

Take care all.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 12:53 PM

BELACGOD


Quote:

Originally posted by LightMeDark:
I think one has to keep in mind that this was in keeping with the original plan of a very dark show. What eventually aired was ligher in tone than what was planned. For all we know, in the original crafting of the story this was a part earlier in the plot and not as completely shocking as it seems it would be given the way the series did turn out (not that it wouldn't still be shocking, of course).



Well, I'm glad they changed that. I like Firefly just how it is, and if it was dark enough that a main character being gang-raped could reasonably fit into the first season, I would not have become a Browncoat.

For those of us who are also Buffy fans:

Select to view spoiler:


What if Angel's torments in hell had happened onscreen? What if, through CGI, season 1 episode 6 had shown the hyena-children eating the principal to the bone onscreen? What if a bunch of vampires had gang-raped Cordelia mid-second season? Would you have watched the next 5 years and gone on to watch Firefly, or would you have decided Joss was one sick f*ck and changed the channel?


NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 2:20 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


I doubt that they would have put that episode in season 1 even if the show had been as dark as they wanted to. They would have had to develop the Reavers more before using them in such a manner. Plus it’s not like they were planning to show the rape.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 4:01 PM

AMYGDALA


Quote:

Originally posted by Blinker:
[Inara] has yet another fight with Mal, in which he says something especially cruel like "I'm not going to get on my knees and kiss your hand like your a lady. You're a whore."

...

Mal gets past Zoe (yeah, right) and walks over to Inara's bed where she's curled up and post-traumatic. Gets on his knees, and kisses her hand.




Wow. Those two have the most amazing not-quite relationship I've ever seen on screen. Okay, the whole idea of this plot is rather revolting, and from the brief outline we've been given it seems ridden with holes (Zoe makes it very clear in the pilot you'd be damn lucky if rape came before flaying and murdering). But just the thought of that interaction between them, the way it would be played out ...

Powerful.

Agree about the syringe. For her to have a secret weapon against rape AND a completely separate syringe-type thing that she just happens to turn to in the pilot when reavers are near seems a little unlikely.

----
"She was naked, and all ... articulate."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 4:46 PM

AGENTROUKA


If this was truly a legitimate episode suggestion, then I imagine it was going to be polished up a LOT more.


There's some holes in that story that have me cringing.

Not so much the idea of rape, although the scenario does have some rather badfic connotations. (I agree with Jacqui there.)

Nor the Zoe thing, because of everyone aboard Serenity she is probably most equipped to deal with a traumatized, sane, adult female. Kaylee's too emotional, River too unstable. Not to mention, who knows what she has seen in the war?


But the rape-kit of death... uh... Not seriously, right?

What creeps me out is the whole handkiss idea.

A healthy happy Inara is a whore but a traumatized, abused Inara is suddenly worth more than that? I'd expect Inara waking up at that moment and slapping Mal square in the face for the implication.

I could imagine that being filmed more subtly than it is described here, making it more obvious that it's a throwaway line he doesn't mean, or something..

But that's still a really clumsy way to highlight the whole sex vs. power vs. morals vs. hypocrisy thing. At least when it comes to Mal's perspective.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 5:14 PM

PSYCHOTICBRIDE


I didn't think the handkiss thing was so hypocritical. I mean, the way I've been reading it -not just this, everything in the series- is that Mal doesn't really mean half of what he says to Inara. Or even if he does, he exaggerates it. I figure he just says stuff like that to keep her at a distance and keep from getting attatched. He has intimacy issues- Wash pointed it out to him durring the torture in "War Stories". But the handkiss- I don't think that's hypocrasy so much as Mal breaking down to something more honest for her because he feels badly, or maybe even guilty, about what's happened to her. I've said to my boyfriend, while analyzing the show a bit, that Mal sees Inara's job as below him, but Inara herself as above him. The handkiss part, that's Mal catering to the part of Inara he sees as being above him.

This is all purely speculative, of course. We're only given such a rough concept to work with here- you're right about that, for sure.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 6:19 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by Jacqui:
I have a hard time picturing Joss taking the "sex = death" metaphor to such a cheesy level.

Or using the "female sexuality and empowerment = death" cliche *at all*. Vagina dentata indeed.

Seriously, Joss has stressed in Inara that sensuality and sexuality is not a bad thing, I honestly can't see him abusing her to such an extent.

Joss, for all his faults, is more subtle than that. Early's threat to Kaylee is so powerful, because it isn't overdone, he's not twirling a big black moustache and sneering and posturing. It's a scary fuckin' scene for us and for Kaylee, because it's so subtle.

A bunch of reavers gang raping Inara sounds like a really bad fanfic, much in the vein of a bunch of reavers gang raping Jayne. It's a cheap plot device to break a character so that they can rebuild them in the way they want.



I'd agree. I'd want to see Inara come out more sane than anyone's ever come out of a Reaver attack. Why? Because sex isn't some deep psychological thing for her but a practical skill for her profession, because she is, in many ways, one of the strongest people on the ship, and because I wouldn't want to see another "rape is worse than death" sentiment out there. It's tiring and dangerous (honor killings, anyone?). Inara is prepared for rape as an occupational hazard--for all we know, she has been raped before. And I say she's too good to be broken by it. I think fear of the Reavers would be far more traumatic than the rape angle. How would you feel if you were captured by Reavers?

The explanation for the syringe fits perfectly--I never could imagine what it was for if not suicide. It's a very good explanation--it gives us more than a woman ready to commit suicide should the Reavers board in Serenity--it gives us a woman who will take as many as she can with her.


And lastly? I think Joss has learned his lesson from Seeing Red. No one was convinced by it, even the writers, and so we have Buffy and Spike snuggly again the next season. Joss now knows he can't take down the strong woman with rape. Sweet little Kaylee? Yes. But Inara, or Zoe? No. As someone said before, they didn't play up the rape angle with the man in Bushwhacked--why should it be so much more desirable (i.e., more untaboo, or more emotionally relevant) to show with a woman?

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:13 PM

AMYGDALA


Quote:

Originally posted by AgentRouka:

A healthy happy Inara is a whore but a traumatized, abused Inara is suddenly worth more than that?



Wow, this site really does make me think more deeply about things - something I'm really not accustomed to.

But I have to agree with psychoticbride here - to me, Mal's verbal abusiveness toward Inara is and has always been pure defensive strategy. He's never struck me as the puritanical type - witness Heart of Gold and his behaviour toward Nandy.

Mal's objection to Inara's occupation is simply an objection to her having sex with other men, not to the idea of a companion in general. From the moment he set eyes on her he saw her as a threat to his fragile equilibrium, and chose this angle (among others) to keep her at a distance. His comment about not kissing her hand is probably pure denial - it's actually something he secretly longs to do, among other worshipful things.

Thus, the thought of him actually doing it at the end the hypothetical episode gives me shivers. He's putting his feelings about her above any thought of self-preservation.

That said, there are the aforementioned major plot-holes, Inara with most of her skin still on being a biggie. I guess the best way to view this episode is as one that effectively became extinct from day one of shooting, for various reasons. I'm glad that Mal's admission of vulnerability toward Inara took another form. That scene in Serenity when he acknowledged her effect on him took my breath away.

----
Mal: "Hey, little one. Understand your part in all this?"
River: "Do you?"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 7:28 PM

ZIRZIRD


I'd just like to point out that this is precisely the reason it's dangerous for fans to have any say over the object of their fandom. I'm a longtime Firefly fan and an ardent supporter of all things Serenity. But reading through all these comments about how revolting this episode may have been, or how incompatible it may seem with the surviving shows... that's the point, people!! That's the point of art, especially dramatic art: to challenge us, to take us to the point of no return and beyond. Precisely because it's uncomfortable.

The main way the BDHs change and grow is through adversity (this isn't unique to Firefly characters, it's basically true of all drama). I for one think that the Inara rape episode could have done wonders for the relationship between Mal and Inara, both in pure plot advancement and character development, to say nothing for the crossover development of the other characters (especially River; I agree with the person who brought up how River and a post-rape Inara might develop a bond).

Think about it: If you'd never seen an episode like War Stories, many of you would dismiss the concept as ludicrous, out of touch with the existing series, etc., etc. I realize and respect that a reaver gang rape is something a great deal more terrible than torture (and murder!), but you see the similarity?

At any rate, my main point is this: I think it's fun that we get together and praise this show we love so much. I think it's great that we keep the fires burning, and hope against reason that we'll ever see Serenity fly again. And I think it's great that we critique the episodes, the movie, and all things Firefly. But as we enter an age where fans may very well have the power to resurrect shows financially, do we really want the artists to pay attention to us? I for one would rather be challenged.

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:00 PM

VISITINGMYINTENTIONS


Quote:

Originally posted by zirzird:
I'd just like to point out that this is precisely the reason it's dangerous for fans to have any say over the object of their fandom. I'm a longtime Firefly fan and an ardent supporter of all things Serenity. But reading through all these comments about how revolting this episode may have been, or how incompatible it may seem with the surviving shows... that's the point, people!! That's the point of art, especially dramatic art: to challenge us, to take us to the point of no return and beyond. Precisely because it's uncomfortable.



Great art is more than shock for shock's sake.

"it has some sweet character deaths -- I mean moments!" - Joss Whedon

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:16 PM

BELACGOD


Personally, I didn't like the Mal/Wash torture scenes. They looked like fake TV torture. I didn't find them convincing at all.

That said, Niska was presented as a ruthless, bad dude, and people who crossed him as likely to end up dead. The Reavers were presented as the ultimate in inhumanity, and those who crossed them as lunch, or at the least traumatized into being like them. Torture by Niska simply has less psychological baggage.

I wouldn't have batted an eye had, for example, the Academy gotten River back and for several episodes the crew had to figure out how to retake her before she got back to the Academy itself. I wasn't crushed by Wash or Book's death, both pretty significant events. And had any other character died, that would have been OK.

But a character surviving Reaving without being completely broken in body and mind would break the internal logic of the 'verse. You could do it once, but afterwards the Reavers would never be the same.

I'd believe this episode in season 4, maybe as part of the S3 finale. Not earlier.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:30 PM

PSYCHOTICBRIDE


Who's to say it's just for the shock? All we've got is a rough outline. I'm certain they had a point with it... I mean... it's Joss and Tim. It's just not neccisarily clear because we have so few details and it was just an idea anyway, nothing concrete.

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 8:48 PM

GIANTEVILHEAD


Well we don't know how long it would take Inara to recover, if she's going to recover at all. I'm assuming that if Firefly had gone on longer, there would have been long term consequences to their actions and it wouldn’t have been like other tv shows where a character is able overcome serious problems like alcoholism in just one or two episodes. I know that if I had been a writer for the show, I probably would have made a 10 or 15 episode arc where River gets addicted to a drug and show all the different stages of drug addiction, craving, tolerance, withdrawal, probably even a relapse.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Saturday, November 19, 2005 10:56 PM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND


Man o man, reading through these posts makes it very clear to me why some Browncoats went to see Serenity and came away not liking it.

These are like 2 sentence, second hand breakdowns of an idea Joss and Tim had for the show. Certainly it would have been refined A LOT. A 2 or 3 sentence blurb is a starting point for the writers to take and run with to craft a great show.

That being said, it's too funny seeing so many people start chiming in with all sorts of absolutes about what this character or that would or wouldn't do. Or the assertion is made that if someone had seen that then they would not have been a fan. Some look at this second hand blub and start picking it apart like crazy.

It's like so many here forget that it's not your show. You love it like it was your own (which is great), but for cryin' out loud it's Joss's characters and his show/movie, all of which have been executed with a precision and skill that has spawned a whole new type of fan: the Browncoat. Don't you think, just maybe, that Joss and Tim would have the ability to pull it off? Don't you think that, just maybe, their track record pretty much answers that question?

It's these same absolute assertions that people are making here that lead them into a theatre with a closet full of expectations. You become your own worst enemy by making yourself unable to enjoy the entertainment that is set in front of you. Sometimes too much analization is a bad thing.

It's just funny to me to see such a short synopsis picked apart so much. Cheesy? So Joss's track record hasn't given you any sort of confidence in his ability to pull something like that off and make it good?

When making a show, they usually keep notebooks full of ideas. Any time a good idea is spewed forth it is added to the list. And then, as a show takes on a life of it's own, certain ideas still fit and others don't. Some ideas still fit after the appropriate tweaking is done. Either way, this was just one simple idea that they had that Tim threw out there for us. Who knows when it would have actually taken place and how different it would have been once it was actually executed.

All I know is that it would have been great because it was done by them and it would have been handled with the same talent and passion that everything we've seen so far has been. Any more speculation from there (IMHO) just seems to lead to expectations and therefore dissapointment.

Oh, and one other thing: this explanation would certainly fit the comments on the commentary about the syringe being something much worse than a suicide drug. Hell, it's worse than the other ideas people have come up with for it as well.

"I don't wanna explode."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:14 AM

AMYGDALA


One of the things that I like about this site is freedom of speech. People can express their opinions about all aspects of firefly, whether they are positive or even negative (within reason, of course). A site where any remotely critical comment was completely shot down would be a less enjoyable and stimulating place to hang out. Well, frankly, it would be quite scary.

I think we are an analytical bunch. The great thing about Firefly is that it stands up to so much analysis - deeper meanings reveal themselves as you delve.

To me it seems a natural reaction when the future of firefly is up in the air, that people would want to speculate about what may have happened, to try to find out what may have been planned for the series. When I'm handed a possible clue like this - I want to think it over, see how it might or might not fit.

I'm grateful for the comments from the people above, as I always am for the varied viewpoints that make me think a little more deeply about things. They've helped me put the topic in perspective.

People didn't like Serenity because they thought too much? Hmm. Doesn't say much for the movie if that's the case. Personally, the more I thought about it, the more I loved it, started appreciating the nuances of the film.



----
Mal: "Hey, little one. Understand your part in all this?"

River: "Do you?"

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:42 AM

GIANTEVILHEAD


I think that some of the people who dislike the episode idea are assuming that the situation is resolved at the end of the episode. That's the way it works in most tv shows, a character goes through an extremely traumatic experience in one episode, recovers completely in the next episode, and the traumatic experience is never mentioned again or maybe it's just sort of alluded to but doesn't affect the story. I do not believe that the Firefly writers would have done that. Inara’s recovery would have probably taken place over an entire season and even then she won’t recover completely.

"I swallowed a bug." -River Tam

NOTIFY: N   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

Sunday, November 20, 2005 12:55 AM

IAMALEAFONTHEWIND


Well I agree completely that the more you look at Firefly/Serenity the more there is to see, and yes that is one of the things that makes it so great.

I'm all for thoughtful discussion as well; freedom of speech to boot. I actually find some of these discussions a lot of fun.

I'm simply expressing my observation that some people tend to get a little too "assumption happy" about characters and stories that are not their own and that they weild a very free hand when analizing other people's creations.

I admit though that I find even this interesting. I myself am a creative type (I am a writer/storyboard artist/illustrator/cartoonist/etc...) for a living and it's interesting to see how people analyze and critic such creations. I don't know, I think that Joss would find all of this amuzing (in a good way). He knows what he's doing, so letting people get into and talk about his work (and in this case "non-work" for lack of a better term) is not something that will get to him very much I would guess. I suppose if someone were to analize something to death that I was writing I would laugh as well. I'm going to do what I'm going to do and if you like it, you like it, and if you don't, you don't. Joss has had enough success to know that he's going to lose a few and gain a few.

I guess I'm just sensative to people getting in and ripping up other people's work due to my own place in the world. I suppose if someone heard a 2 sentence blurb about an idea I was working on and said it was "cheezy", I would just smile, shrugg my shoulders, and set about to prove them wrong. That's actually a large part of the satisfaction of being creative (or trying just about anything for that matter) - stepping out on that limb and succeeding where others might not have expected you to (including one's self).

But I stand by what I said before about people makeing assertions about characters that are not their own. They see only certain things that they want to see in any given character and get to thinking that they actually "know" this character, but really, how could you actually "know" any of these characters? You may certainly be familiar with them, but the only person who really knows these characters is Joss - and even HE may not totally know these characters. Most writers I know tend to have their characters take on a life of their own (especially when there is someone else playing the role for tv/movies who brings their own two cents to the table). Anyway, when anybody starts to think that they "know" the characters or the 'verse too well, they set themselves up for dissappointment because inevitably attached to their assumed knowledge is expectations.

And I'm not saying that people should just quit analyzing the show (or whatever fiction they like), I just think you have to be careful about making assumptions. I mean anyone is certainly free to do so, but why toture yourself like that? Why assume yourself right out of the ability to enjoy something that can be so much fun? Analysis free of assumption, that's my motto (for tonight anyways).

Ugh. I'm so tired. I've been up working almost all night on a movie poster, so if I'm just being crazy, please excuse me. Oh, excuse the terrible spelling as well - I'm too tired to check it. I'm now putting my sopbox away and going to sleep.

By the way, just so show how much of a fan I am, I hid a Firefly image in the movie poster I'm illustrating. Ha! Maybe I'll share it once the movie is out and I'm free to show the work. Til then just rest easy knowing that I'm subliminally putting Firefly/Serenity out there in front of people.


"I don't wanna explode."

NOTIFY: Y   |  REPLY  |  REPLY WITH QUOTE  |  TOP  |  HOME  

YOUR OPTIONS

NEW POSTS TODAY

USERPOST DATE

OTHER TOPICS

DISCUSSIONS
76th Independent Battalion Part 47
Wed, November 26, 2014 09:28 - 220 posts
CAPTION TIGHTPANTS: Aim to Misbehave #57
Tue, November 25, 2014 23:32 - 29 posts
Firefly fan questions
Tue, November 25, 2014 08:27 - 7 posts
PSSST Wishi, Dun. Over 'ere.
Tue, November 25, 2014 00:13 - 101 posts
Movies coming in... 2015?? ALREADY?? Didn't I just do a thread about movies of 2014??
Mon, November 24, 2014 19:32 - 3 posts
"Adam is a Hottie"---FFF Version
Mon, November 24, 2014 03:51 - 421 posts
This that it's not the body
Wed, November 19, 2014 06:18 - 1 posts
Captian Mel side arme
Mon, November 17, 2014 18:51 - 4 posts
Firefly Pen pal?
Sun, November 16, 2014 16:48 - 7 posts
Serenity Galley Props
Sun, November 16, 2014 08:38 - 3 posts
Can't Stop The Serenity Fall Auction on E-Bay
Fri, November 14, 2014 18:21 - 3 posts
JeffreyMoon here and I need your help
Thu, November 13, 2014 17:54 - 13 posts

FFF.NET SOCIAL